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Post by Defiant1 on May 16, 2004 21:51:39 GMT -5
I am going to post in this informal forum, what I believe to be the approximate print run totals for the titles...
Let me know what you think...This will not include some any one-shots or special issues...
Warriors Of Plasm 0 - 150,000 (Previews Edition) Note: This is the actual documened print run. 1 - 650,000 2 - 420,000 3 - 265,000 4 - 180,000 5 - 135,000 6 - 105,000 7 - 82,500 8 - 70,000 9 - 61,000 10 - 55,000 11 - 49,000 12 - 40,500 13 - 36,000
Dark Dominion 1 - 325,000 2 - 162,000 3 - 115,500 4 - 89,000 5 - 71,000 6 - 58,500 7 - 51,500 8 - 45,500 9 - 38,500 10 - 34,000
DEFIANT Genesis 1 (with card insert) - 10,000 Note: This is the actual documened print run.
Good Guys 1 - 202,500 2 - 121,500 3 - 85,500 4 - 63,500 5 - 53,000 6 - 46,000 7 - 41,000 8 - 35,000 9 - 30,500
War Dancer 1 - 118,500 2 - 70,000 3 - 55,000 4 - 50,000 5 - 42,000 6 - 35,000
Charlemagne 1 - 92,000 2 - 58,500 3 - 48,500 4 - 42,000 5 - 36,500
Dogs of War 1 - 70,000 2 - 47,000 3 - 37,500 4 - 30,500 5 - 25,000
Prudence & Caution 1 - 81,000 2 - 28,800
It becomes clear when looking at these numbers that Defiant was beginning to stabilize to a reader base of about 20,000 to 25,000 readers and not everyone was buying all the titles. The new title were showing only moderate initial sales with a quick drop-off.
20,000 - 30,000 print runs barely break even. They cost as much to make as the sales generate. Any sales less than that, especially for a company like Defiant that had an expensive and aggressive marketing campaign, it was clearly becoming evident that a negative cash flow was going to follow.
The investment capital ran out, and the positive cash flow was on the verge of running out.
Furthermore, if I project out for the next few months on what had been ordered, these are the "likely" sales totals (...had the issues actually been published)...
Dark Dominion 13 - 25,500 Good Guys 12 - 22,000 Charlemagne 8 - 25,000 Dogs of War 6 - 20,200 Prudence & Caution 5 - 24,500
While it is evident that rough times were ahead, it is discouraging that Defiant was not patient with the 20,000 strong fan base. These people were the readers that would be likely to give positive praise, just as Valiant's small fan base gave their early titles positive publicity.
Defiant 1
Added DEFIANT Genesis #1 (with card insert) to the list on 3/23/05
Added Plasm #0 (Previews Edition) to the list on 4/17/05
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Post by Todd Luck on Jun 11, 2004 14:43:20 GMT -5
Where did you the info for those numbers from? I just started to wonder about the Defaint and Broadway numbers after seeing the Valiant print run numbers on valiantcomic.com, and I see they're already here in a post I missed!
I can't believe the investors pulled out judging from those numbers. From the looks of those numbers Defiant never even lost any money publishing any of those issues other than P & C #2! Valiant sales went way down before Unity but then surged back up for the crossover (mind you they didn't go down as much but the comic market was stronger at the time). You think they could've atleast waited to see the full reaction ro Schism.
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Post by Defiant1 on Jun 12, 2004 14:30:48 GMT -5
Where did you the info for those numbers from? I just started to wonder about the Defiant and Broadway numbers after seeing the Valiant print run numbers on valiantcomic.com, and I see they're already here in a post I missed! I can't believe the investors pulled out judging from those numbers. From the looks of those numbers Defiant never even lost any money publishing any of those issues other than P & C #2! Valiant sales went way down before Unity but then surged back up for the crossover (mind you they didn't go down as much but the comic market was stronger at the time). You think they could've atleast waited to see the full reaction ro Schism. These estimates are based on some published Capital City numbers and then scaled up proportionately to factor what Diamond should have been ordering. I agree entirely with what you are saying. What bothered me more is that I was actually getting more excited about the progress and the direction it was going. In other words, I was hooked. I wasn't going anywhere. Opening Dark Dominion #10 and seeing Michael Alexander in Mexico battling demons that looked like Aztec drawing... I loved that. It was a great departure from the standard fare of Demons he'd been battling. I guess there were three problems. 1) The pad of money was running out. 2) They factored that everyone should rightfully be paid for the unpublished work they'd already started. That meant some of the financial pad could not be gambled away on hopes of success. 3) The direction of sales was going completely the wrong direction. P&C's sales must have been a real disappointment. Chris Claremont probably didn't come to the project cheap. It was also said elsewhere by an inker that the next issue of P&C had not been started. There had been delays because they didn't know which way to take the comic. You can only imagine the frustration from a creative side. Then again, a seed stays in the ground a long time before it reaps the rewards of squeezing through the ground to that first ray of light. Defiant1
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Post by Todd Luck on Jun 13, 2004 21:18:31 GMT -5
Did you have the Diamond numbers or was it educated guessing for the scaling up? Man, I remember when I saw Plasm#1 just above the Valiant's Deathmate issue for that month in the Diamond Top 100. I remember thinking to myself "revenge is sweet" . It seems like Defiant would've started to pay off some of that start up money. I mean the combined sales for just the first two issues of Plasm was over a million copies according to your numbers! I still can't believe the investor didn't comprehend that they were in the "bust" of boom/bust market and it would take a little longer to build back the readers and stabilize the numbers. Especially after one of them (Rivergroup) screwed over Defiant's rep with late and canceled projects that pissed fans and retailers off, and helped fuel the numerous "Defiant's going down" rumors that abounded at the time. Btw, do you have print run numbers for Broadway?
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Post by Defiant1 on Jun 14, 2004 0:22:52 GMT -5
Did you have the Diamond numbers or was it educated guessing for the scaling up? Man, I remember when I saw Plasm#1 just above the Valiant's Deathmate issue for that month in the Diamond Top 100. I remember thinking to myself "revenge is sweet" . It seems like Defiant would've started to pay off some of that start up money. I mean the combined sales for just the first two issues of Plasm was over a million copies according to your numbers! I still can't believe the investor didn't comprehend that they were in the "bust" of boom/bust market and it would take a little longer to build back the readers and stabilize the numbers. Especially after one of them (Rivergroup) screwed over Defiant's rep with late and canceled projects that pissed fans and retailers off, and helped fuel the numerous "Defiant's going down" rumors that abounded at the time. Btw, do you have print run numbers for Broadway? I'm not sure if I have any Comics Retailer magazines going back that far. That would be my only (likely) source for a Diamond sales chart. I have no Diamond numbers and they try to keep that info supressed. All the numbers were very rough estimates based on teh Capital City numbers. I would bet that Defiant put all the profits from the early books into advertising and promotion... including Jim's seminar. They gave away a lot of drawing pads and pencils with custom logos. Defiant box cutters, video production crews... you name it... they didn't skimp. I have no numbers at all for Broadway. No charts.. nothing Defiant1
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Post by Todd Luck on Jun 14, 2004 16:45:01 GMT -5
Try searching newsgroups using Google. Diamond Top 200, 300, etc lists were posted monthly on rec.arts.comics.misc and groups like that. I found many charts with Broadway sales on it. If you knew the right things to type in (my search was a mess) you might even be able to find something older.
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Post by Defiant1 on Jun 14, 2004 23:12:03 GMT -5
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Post by Defiant1 on Dec 4, 2004 1:13:57 GMT -5
bump
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Post by depluto on Dec 4, 2004 10:46:22 GMT -5
Great info. Thanks for bumping it up for noobs like me.
I had no idea that made that many WOP 1s. I guess it seemed like a reasonable number back in the day, but that's about the same number as all the Broadway comics ever printed, isn't it?
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Post by Defiant1 on Dec 4, 2004 13:00:37 GMT -5
Great info. Thanks for bumping it up for noobs like me. I had no idea that made that many WOP 1s. I guess it seemed like a reasonable number back in the day, but that's about the same number as all the Broadway comics ever printed, isn't it? The orders and hype were tremendous. And the implications and backlash were immediate. I bought 10 copies at 55% off cover price the day it came out. There were so many speculators turned dealer back then that it severely started hurting the retailers. The retailer I bought WOP #1 from thought he was ordering what his customers would buy. He does a weekend show and he sees a weekly competitor selling their copies at 45% off as part of a price war. He looks at me and says, "I'll sell them at a loss just so that I don't get stuck with them." He did. he lost about three percentage point. I think his discount ws 52% off and he sold me copies at 55% off. Whenever people debate and try to say Defiant Comics were inferior, I like to stress that the reader's voice never came through like it dd for pre-unity Valiant. Defiant was hit with a backlash of negative sentiment from retailers stuck with inventory. A stack of comics not moving on the shelf meant "don't buy this". Selling out of a comic defined to buyers what was worth buying. Solar #10 sells out...collectors want it. Plasm doesn't... well there must be something wrong with it? right? My answer is no. Defiant1
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Post by VaultKeeper on Dec 4, 2004 22:31:09 GMT -5
Thanks for bumping up this topic, Dave. The print run info is interesting.
When looking back at Defiant, there were a few interesting mis-steps taken with the birth of Defiant which I believe hurt them badly in the already saturated & shrinking marketplace.
Mistake #1: Announcing that they would only make 15,000 Plasm #0 Binders. This made them sell for inflated prices the day they were released, which turned off alot of people instantly. Defiant tried to make retailers happy by instantly going into a 2nd print on binders, but I think this turned the fans off even worse. At the time, NO ONE wanted a 2nd Edition Binder.
Mistake #2: The free Plasm #0 comic bound in Previews. This turned out to be a good promo for pre-orders of Plasm #1, but it killed the uniqueness of the Plasm #0 story only being available as a card set. By the time they released Dark Dominion #0 cards & binders, no one seemed to care enough to buy into it.
Mistake #3: Too much, too soon. I think the company would have had a better chance if it hadn't been so ambiious with too many card sets.
I think the card sets were good, but if you look, they get so ahead of themselves. They introduced many characters in their character cards which never even got the chance to appear in any of the comics!
I don't know how much was spent producing the cards vs producing the comics, but if they would have waited on the cards, they might have been able to last an extra year with the comics, giving them a better chance to get established, with better character recognition.
In basicially a year's time, they released: Plasm Cards, Plasms 1st Edition Binders, Plasm 2nd Edition Binders, Plasm Special Tin, Plasm Premium Tin, Splatterbowl Tin, Dark Dominion Cards, & Dark Dominion Binders. Plus they solicited Mule vs Chasm Tins, Good Guys Cards, & Defiant Universe Cards, all of which were cancelled (except the Mule Tins were already made). This was just too much card product for a new company with unfamilar characters, at a time when the card market was going soft.
The growth plan for the company in general needed a major overhaul from its start, IMO. Shooter seemed to want to start Defiant out BIG. Plus Marvel's lawsuit over "Plasmer" drained additional company funds.
Through the years, Broadway, although good, may become a forgotten company & forgotten universe because it didn't produce much before dying. However, when looking back at Defiant, people are going to realize what a fantastic universe Shooter tried to create. He had me hooked, & I could have enjoyed reading these type stories for alot longer than they were produced.---Steve
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Post by Defiant1 on Dec 5, 2004 3:30:58 GMT -5
Thanks for bumping up this topic, Dave. The print run info is interesting. It took me some time to compile and estimate also I want it to get as much mileage as possible. When looking back at Defiant, there were a few interesting mis-steps taken with the birth of Defiant which I believe hurt them badly in the already saturated & shrinking marketplace. It's hard to say they are mis-steps. They made these decision at a time when everything was in fluctuation. Too many variables in the marketing equation were changing in too short of a time period. Mistake #1: Announcing that they would only make 15,000 Plasm #0 Binders. This made them sell for inflated prices the day they were released, which turned off alot of people instantly. Defiant tried to make retailers happy by instantly going into a 2nd print on binders, but I think this turned the fans off even worse. At the time, NO ONE wanted a 2nd Edition Binder. I do not believe this was intended. I believe that all parties involved believed that a fledgling company would not get an intial order for 650,000 copies on their first issue of their first title. Keep in mind that Jim Shooter was ejected from Valiant just as the huge orders started rolling in over there. He never really saw large orders until Unity. He never really knew what triggered the sales increase. They were doing the same business as usual until the craze hit. In his mind, and in the mind of conservative investors, modest thinking was a logical way to prceed. The development and growth of Valiant was his only benchmark. Name one independant company that had come up to Marvel sales figures on their very first release? I don't think there were many if any. So let's take a wild guess and assume Jim & investors thought Magnus #1 orders were their best benchmark example. What was that? That was around 80,000 copies I assume. How did they get sales of 80,000 copies. Some people may not know this, But Mile High Comics had boatloads of Magnus copies when Valiant started. Who did Defiant get to back them for Plasm? The same wildcard that helped Valiant.... it was Chuck again. But you know what? That Magnus #0 program was a lot of trouble and it involved a lot more work and personal investment than Jim expected. They had a new investor ow. A card company. The cards couldn't wait a year like the first Valiant card set. They needed to release something earlier for their investors and they needed it to flow into the marketing of their first comic. A zero issue was a brilliant and logical way to do that. Wait a minute though.... they have no benchmark for releasing a card set first? They didn't know how many cards would sell, but they had an idea that it would be less than their first comic book. So lets speculate that they go back to Magnus #1 and 80,000 copies is what they are jugglng in their heads. That probably seemed like a lot to them even thought Valiant was selling obscene numbers at the time. Jim did not really know what his name had become by then. I think he knew it was bigger than ever, but I still don't think he really comprehended the scope. I believe they limited the release of the card set because they wanted it to be a premium collectible. I think they based it on a #1 selling 80,000 copies and I think they thought limiting the binder would help it meet their projected sales figures. I do not believe they ever imagined individuals like myself would order 10 copies. That is how many I ordered. Retailers multiplied their orders by ten when they feared an allocation. There was NO way for Jim & investors to predict that response. They were making guesses of what to do on uncharted ground. The timing of Jim's departure at Valiant is what killed his perceptions of what to expect. Everyone must have believed that Jim was going to have to prove himself again from the beginning. Their advertising budgets were huge and unnecessary. Gossip & retailer buzz alone was all it took to sell that comic Mistake #2: The free Plasm #0 comic bound in Previews. This turned out to be a good promo for pre-orders of Plasm #1, but it killed the uniqueness of the Plasm #0 story only being available as a card set. By the time they released Dark Dominion #0 cards & binders, no one seemed to care enough to buy into it. They knew releasing a card set would upset readers who don't buy cards. The only way to make ammends was to give readers a way to read the story until it could be collected in a TPB. Previews was the easiest way. The fate of the Dark Dominion cards is all a byproduct of the events which annoyed customers with the Plasm Cards. I was jaded too. The River group was trying to reclaim their investment too quickly. They pissed everyone off including me. The expensive card sets were tolerable to me. I passed on them. The binders were not tolerable. I had a full set of Level I cards, but the number of chase cards available exceeded what the binder would hold. What belonged in the binder? What didn't? There was no set way the binder should look. That was not tolerable to me. Comic book collectors are completist. You don't leave a binder 3 slots away from being cmplete and you don't make it 4 slots shy holding all the chase cards. The card set should have matched the number of binder slots and they should have made seperate mini binders for the chase cards. By the time the foil character cards came out, where the hell did they go? I'm a comic book collector and I think the comic book was a good idea. I think the chase card and bonus card planning was horrible and excessive continued...
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Post by Defiant1 on Dec 5, 2004 3:31:56 GMT -5
Mistake #3: Too much, too soon. I think the company would have had a better chance if it hadn't been so ambiious with too many card sets. I think the card sets were good, but if you look, they get so ahead of themselves. They introduced many characters in their character cards which never even got the chance to appear in any of the comics! The River Group got greedy. Greed killed comics in the 90's. Jim cited lack of honor. Honor gets tossed by the wayside when greed enters the picture. Jim s right, but greed was the motivator and root cause, not lack of honor. I don't know how much was spent producing the cards vs producing the comics, but if they would have waited on the cards, they might have been able to last an extra year with the comics, giving them a better chance to get established, with better character recognition. They entered the market at a crossroads. If they waited a year sales would have dropped to Broadway numbers. They were doing it anyway. There was a chain reaction of events. Defiant had other investors waiting to jump in. One of those was a toy company. The Marvel lawsuit scared the toy company away and that killed the extra necessary financing. It's rumored that prototype toy products were already in development. That was a mutually beneficial deal that real became a make-or-break deal for Defiant's existence. They toys would have boosted comic sales and the comic would have boosted toy sales. Todd McFarlane proved that cross-marketing the two could work. Jim had already proved it with Secret Wars at Marvel. In basicially a year's time, they released: Plasm Cards, Plasms 1st Edition Binders, Plasm 2nd Edition Binders, Plasm Special Tin, Plasm Premium Tin, Splatterbowl Tin, Dark Dominion Cards, & Dark Dominion Binders. Plus they solicited Mule vs Chasm Tins, Good Guys Cards, & Defiant Universe Cards, all of which were cancelled (except the Mule Tins were already made). This was just too much card product for a new company with unfamilar characters, at a time when the card market was going soft. The scope of their Trademark covered it all. Toys, cards... you name it. Comics don't make lots of money. The concepts behind them do. The growth plan for the company in general needed a major overhaul from its start, IMO. Shooter seemed to want to start Defiant out BIG. Plus Marvel's lawsuit over "Plasmer" drained additional company funds. Investors want their money to make money. No exceptions. Investors look at numbers. You don't make new numbers by looking at the old numbers you already have. Dr. Lee a former Tucker Ga. pastor and television evangelist used to spout out "the law of the harvest" in his sermons. He said 1) You reap what you sow. 2) You reap more than what you sow. and 3) You have to wait to reap what you sow. Waiting is a hard word for investor to accept because they are greedy. Any investor that wants a huge sound and reliabble return on their cash in a very short time is pretty much an idiot. America is full of idiotic investors. People were amazed that that Spider-Man movie made over 400 million dollars. Why? To me it was logical. The seed was planted over 40 years ago and it has permeated our culture. Spiderman had little sprouts of pop-culture growth manifesting itself and growing in people's thoughts for years. Defiant Comics has done the same for ten years, but it's done so in the shadows. My site peeked the characters back out of the shadows and some attention is raised again. Defiant has some very solid concepts that could be marketed today better than they could 10 years ago. They were designed to be marketed. Few if any other comic book properties were designed to be marketed. I think a Dark Dominion video game where you live in two planes or more at once would be a cool. I think a Plasm toy line would be coo for kids. Through the years, Broadway, although good, may become a forgotten company & forgotten universe because it didn't produce much before dying. However, when looking back at Defiant, people are going to realize what a fantastic universe Shooter tried to create. He had me hooked, & I could have enjoyed reading these type stories for alot longer than they were produced.---Steve Yep. It was only going to get better. It needed it'd time to germinate. Everone was in too big of a hurry. Defiant1
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Post by knightt on Dec 5, 2004 14:47:42 GMT -5
From what I have read and gotten out of Jim (through email) is that the card company side of the house was out of control and some things were beyond his control as far as that 'lane' goes.
I know he wanted the company to be big (and why not, he started Valiant and look where they went) and had some very good sci-fi and moderate hero stuff to support it. Here I am YEARS later and just read Warriors of Plasm for the fist time... man, how I am wishing there was issues #14 and higher.
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Post by andrew on Dec 7, 2004 19:07:42 GMT -5
On the inferior comment up above, I'll come out and say that I liked Defiant more than Pre-Unity. I loved the concepts of the Valiants guys, but Defiant was/is just captivating to me. Maybe it's because I'm a sci-fi type, but I'm just enthralled by the scope of Defiant and I really felt a genuine interest in the characters. I'm sincerely bummed out to think about what Defiant could have become.
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Post by Defiant1 on Dec 7, 2004 20:56:26 GMT -5
On the inferior comment up above, I'll come out and say that I liked Defiant more than Pre-Unity. I loved the concepts of the Valiants guys, but Defiant was/is just captivating to me. Maybe it's because I'm a sci-fi type, but I'm just enthralled by the scope of Defiant and I really felt a genuine interest in the characters. I'm sincerely bummed out to think about what Defiant could have become. I assume you are responding to my comment... "Whenever people debate and try to say Defiant Comics were inferior, I like to stress that the reader's voice never came through like it dd for pre-unity Valiant. Defiant was hit with a backlash of negative sentiment from retailers stuck with inventory. A stack of comics not moving on the shelf meant "don't buy this". Selling out of a comic defined to buyers what was worth buying. Solar #10 sells out...collectors want it. Plasm doesn't... well there must be something wrong with it? right? My answer is no." The main people I'm talking about are people that either never gave Defiant a chance at all or people who hopped onto the Valiant bandwagon a dollar short and a day late. They stand in marvel over the fact Valiant held it's own to the big two but fail to accept or realize that the first year and a half of Valiant hero books are the only reason that was possible. Defiant1
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Post by andrew on Dec 7, 2004 22:42:48 GMT -5
Yeah, I've just always wanted to get that off my chest. I just saw it as a springboard.
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Post by Defiant1 on Dec 8, 2004 0:32:13 GMT -5
Yeah, I've just always wanted to get that off my chest. I just saw it as a springboard. I prefer "down to earth" stories. When I think of the Org of Plasm I think of two things. 1) Ego(?), The living planet from the old Thor comics. 2) Was this originated at Valiant? Was the Plasm world a reworking of concepts to be used on the Spider-Alien homeworld? One of my favorite "new" X-Men stories was "Days of Futurepast". You were taken to a strange world of he future and you wondered was was lurking in the shadows as you turned each page. The unknown setting and potential surprises were just as compelling as the story being told. Plasm takes you to a far away world but slowly issue by issue it shattered it's advantage of the "unknown setting and potential surprises". As the stories expanded upon the scope of the setting, it left me picking apart the physics of the planet and it required a growing "leap of faith" to accept the events as reasonable and believeable. It turned from science fiction to outright fantasy. My tastes will always lean towards science fiction and the potential for this kind of writing to expand mankind's ambitions, hopes, and possibilities. Eternally dystopic worlds and thatb type of literature (and attitude) lose my interest over time as being simply negative and defeatist. Those elements can be necessary as points of conflict in a story, but the ultimate message which draws me back for more is the message that a better world and a better place exist even if it's only in our minds. Charlemagne tapped that perfectly. Michael Alexander tapped into that strategically & in spirit. Plasm really didn't. It was intricate stuff, but Plasm just didn't deliver story elements that I found enthralling. I was hooked on it all and bought it as a whole package, but when the new comics came out, I was keying in on War Dancer, Charlemagne, and Dogs Of War. Dogs of War appealled to that concept "I don't care how it's done. I want results and I WILL get results by whatever means possible." Dogs of War was innovative and a modern type of horror genre. Throw away the cheesy cliche Vampires and Frankenstein characters and replace them with a guy who'll blow up an entire embassy of innocent people just to stop some terrorist. Replace werewolves with a political activist that will shove tobacco products down some executive's throat. THOSE topics address the real life horrors in life. Good Guys was an interesting book, but I didn't get where it was going. I don't believe that kids really like reading about kids so I never understood why writers would ever focus on little kids. I detest Spielberg movies because every child he prtrays on screen is really just an adult character trapped in some youthful age bracket. In real life kids don't know how to be heroes. They get in the way. They have either the most noble, idealistic, and honest viewpoints... or they just screw up because they've never been taught anything. My attitude about "Good Guys" was "Where is this going?" and "What's the point?" I knew there was a point, and that point tied in with Dogs of War to be published in DOW #8. So Good Guys and DOW were going to exceed my expectations, I just didn't have any evidence until last year. Defiant overall was like a roller coaster that jerked you around sometimes. It threw you two ways to Sunday, and it was in the process of delivering the best part of the ride. All we really got when they shut the doors was the propaganda flyers (for Schism). It was 75% setup. For me, Valiant actually delivered a payload and it was poised to deliver even more payloads that were even more intricate and compelling. I'd have to say I still like Valiant better, but that's only because the setup was completed and Unity was delivered in full. If Defiant had completed it's Schism project, I think it could have been far more innovative and equally compelling. Defiant1
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Post by VaultKeeper on Dec 8, 2004 8:20:17 GMT -5
I have to agree with most of what you said, Dave. When you consider all the unused characters that were presented on the card sets, it does make you wonder about the stories never told, & the directions that different titles would have took after Schism.---Steve
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Post by Defiant1 on Dec 8, 2004 10:47:20 GMT -5
I have to agree with most of what you said, Dave. When you consider all the unused characters that were presented on the card sets, it does make you wonder about the stories never told, & the directions that different titles would have took after Schism.---Steve I had started a section transcribing the character summaries that Michael Alexander had done in the later issues of Dark Dominion. When I reread the Dark Dominion series earlier this year. I remembered that a lot of it was setup as Michael discovered more about his abilities. When I got to issue #10 I open up the comic and he's fighting all these substratum characters that look like Aztec drawing. My thought was "cool". There is no way to create a icon in the comics world in one issue. It takes a series of story building blocks to get there. Dark Dominion didn't really start to use the things it had set up until the last issue. Plasm set up a lot of things and then scattered them. There was no way to know exactly where they were going throughout the entire series. Good Guys was just starting to settle into the characters when it ended. Defiant1
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Post by knightt on Dec 8, 2004 17:01:02 GMT -5
Valiant has years of history to work... how long was Defiant around ? I could see where it would have developed some good stories given the time to do so. I have only read Warriors of Plasm and Dogs of War all the way through and am currently reading Dark Dominion and have enjoyed them a lot. But honestly, I read Valiant books along side of them and to do this I must completely forget what I read in the previous set of books because it doesnt really compare. Valiant being the better... then again, Valiant has over 700 books to read versus what... the less than 50 Defiant books ?
My biggest heartburn with the books is that the lifespan of the company was so short. After reading issue #13 of Warriors of Plasm, I was VERY eager for more. Especially after accepting the Plasm/Org universe and really enjoying it... it just ended AND at a point where they were on Earth. What could have happened after that ? I guess we will have to use our imagination.
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Post by Defiant1 on Dec 8, 2004 19:26:13 GMT -5
Valiant has years of history to work... how long was Defiant around ? I could see where it would have developed some good stories given the time to do so. I have only read Warriors of Plasm and Dogs of War all the way through and am currently reading Dark Dominion and have enjoyed them a lot. But honestly, I read Valiant books along side of them and to do this I must completely forget what I read in the previous set of books because it doesnt really compare. Valiant being the better... then again, Valiant has over 700 books to read versus what... the less than 50 Defiant books ? My biggest heartburn with the books is that the lifespan of the company was so short. After reading issue #13 of Warriors of Plasm, I was VERY eager for more. Especially after accepting the Plasm/Org universe and really enjoying it... it just ended AND at a point where they were on Earth. What could have happened after that ? I guess we will have to use our imagination. Regarding Valiant... Valiant may have 700 issues, but it ENDED at Rai #0. At that point every story went the opposite direction. Magnus and Rai went from a questionable utopia to a tragic dystopia. Solar went from being a God that controlled energy upon a whim to some guy in a red suit just zapping people. Bloodshot had a well created concept, but the mystery and intrigue that was intended to entice the reader for years was all explained in months. What was the point? Eternal Warrior just got boring. Archer & Armstrong wnet to hell, but I can't remember what exactly defined that moment for me. Probably when I just dropped the other titles cold from being fed up. Harbinger stayed interesting until #25, but after that... what was the point? Why even call it Harbinger if you are going to abandon EVERY concept the pulled the stories forward? Why not just cancel it and make a new book.... OH! They did that too. Dr. Mirage was just 100% horrid. I had no interest in any of it. I have more pride in owning the Power Ranger comics than I do Dr. Mirage. Secret Weapon? More like Blatantly bad. Valiant Vision? That was really cool, but it was more fun looking at OTHER companies comics with it. Last year I thought it might be cool to own a full set.... just to say I had it. I bought about three long boxes worth for about $40. That's 4 cents a book. I puposely did not buy any of the overproduced books that came out the first year after Shooter left. I sold maybe ten of the books and made $20, so the ones I have from that purchase cost me maybe 2 cents each on average. I STILL regret buying them. One day I'll get off my butt and sell them and I'll make a good profit, but for now... I don't even care to look at them. If I sell the 890 books I have left for the same price I paid I'll still double my money! To me the ones after Rai #0 are just worthless. Totally worthless. Defiant1
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Post by VaultKeeper on Dec 8, 2004 20:34:53 GMT -5
Regarding Valiant... Valiant may have 700 issues, but it ENDED at Rai #0. At that point every story went the opposite direction. Magnus and Rai went from a questionable utopia to a tragic dystopia. Solar went from being a God that controlled energy upon a whim to some guy in a red suit just zapping people. Bloodshot had a well created concept, but the mystery and intrigue that was intended to entice the reader for years was all explained in months. What was the point? Eternal Warrior just got boring. Archer & Armstrong wnet to hell, but I can't remember what exactly defined that moment for me. Probably when I just dropped the other titles cold from being fed up. Harbinger stayed interesting until #25, but after that... what was the point? Why even call it Harbinger if you are going to abandon EVERY concept the pulled the stories forward? Why not just cancel it and make a new book.... OH! They did that too. Dr. Mirage was just 100% horrid. I had no interest in any of it. I have more pride in owning the Power Ranger comics than I do Dr. Mirage. Secret Weapon? More like Blatantly bad. Valiant Vision? That was really cool, but it was more fun looking at OTHER companies comics with it. Last year I thought it might be cool to own a full set.... just to say I had it. I bought about three long boxes worth for about $40. That's 4 cents a book. I puposely did not buy any of the overproduced books that came out the first year after Shooter left. I sold maybe ten of the books and made $20, so the ones I have from that purchase cost me maybe 2 cents each on average. I STILL regret buying them. One day I'll get off my butt and sell them and I'll make a good profit, but for now... I don't even care to look at them. If I sell the 890 books I have left for the same price I paid I'll still double my money! To me the ones after Rai #0 are just worthless. Totally worthless. Defiant1 I was & am more forgiving of some of the stuff everyone else seemed to dislike. There was some pure crap produced after Shooter, but it wasn't any worse than what alot of others were producing at the same time. I see it that a few talented creators tried to hold things together long enough for the company to be sold, & then things went in a million different directions between Birthquake, cancelled titles, twice a month publishing, Windjammer titles, & the Armada titles. Then came V2......I find some of the work produced for V2 was actually pretty good. Alot was crap. What is your take on V2? Any highlights or redeeming points?---Steve
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Post by knightt on Dec 8, 2004 20:51:44 GMT -5
I read and REALLY enjoyed VH2 Bloodshot and for some reason enjoyed what I read of Solar. The books art went through a milestone change and 'some' of the storytelling got even better. But for the most part, I can only view VH2 as an alternate universe. I owe allegiance to the VH1 books... THAT is where the magic was for me.
I attribute most of that magic to Shooter and have to admit that I now enjoy some of the stories that were under Layton's charge. ALL books that were at the end of their lifespan sucked and then sucked some more which just left me shaking my head and reeling from the pain as I crawled for a Oxycodone pain med. But along the way there are some GREAT times, great art and great storytelling. I just wish that Shooter could have hung around for a while longer. Just something about the way he writes (or oversees) that does it for me. Layton's work had it's moments but yes, I have a hard time with the way things were handled towards the end and I just get........ ANGRY.
Angry that the books that I came to enjoy so much... ended without so much as a whimper.
Same goes for Defiant and Broadway books, except with those.... they didnt even end, they just ceased to exist.
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Post by Defiant1 on Dec 8, 2004 21:24:46 GMT -5
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Post by Brother J on Dec 24, 2004 17:21:30 GMT -5
Good day for me today Defiant wise, as I got both my 3rd edition binder in the mail and a bunch of Defiant books from Mile High via UPS. Since I can usually find the early issues in cheap bins at shows, I focused on the last issues of all the Defiant books and paid about a $1 each for these. I also picked up both the Spanish editions of Prudence and Caution. Also picked up the last issues I needed to complete my set of Master of Kung Fu by Marvel and a couple of other books. With free shipping and the additional 20% off discount, my bill was less than $20 for 14 books.
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Post by Defiant1 on Mar 23, 2005 19:52:47 GMT -5
Added DEFIANT Genesis (with card insert) to the list since it is now known that 10,000 were scheduled to be handed out at Comicfest.
Defiant1
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Post by Defiant1 on Apr 17, 2005 11:37:18 GMT -5
Added Plasm #0 to the list. This does make me question the validity of estimates for #1 & up. Time will probably tell.
Defiant1
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Post by Defiant1 on Apr 12, 2009 21:42:17 GMT -5
It took me forever to find this thread, so I've added a sticky. I was able to shorten it quite a bit by deleting one former member's uninformative content. By deleting some of his posts and my responses to him, I think the thread has more meat to it.
Defiant1
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Post by magnusr on Apr 27, 2009 4:41:18 GMT -5
It took me forever to find this thread, so I've added a sticky. I was able to shorten it quite a bit by deleting one former member's uninformative content. By deleting some of his posts and my responses to him, I think the thread has more meat to it. Defiant1 Can't compare, sure like it as it is now. /Magnus
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