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Post by thebluescout on Jul 26, 2009 16:41:52 GMT -5
I am going to post in this informal forum, what I believe to be the approximate print run totals for the titles... Let me know what you think...This will not include some any one-shots or special issues... Warriors Of Plasm 0 - 150,000 (Previews Edition) Note: This is the actual documened print run. 1 - 650,000 2 - 420,000 3 - 265,000 4 - 180,000 5 - 135,000 6 - 105,000 7 - 82,500 8 - 70,000 9 - 61,000 10 - 55,000 11 - 49,000 12 - 40,500 13 - 36,000 Dark Dominion 1 - 325,000 2 - 162,000 3 - 115,500 4 - 89,000 5 - 71,000 6 - 58,500 7 - 51,500 8 - 45,500 9 - 38,500 10 - 34,000 DEFIANT Genesis 1 (with card insert) - 10,000 Note: This is the actual documened print run. Good Guys 1 - 202,500 2 - 121,500 3 - 85,500 4 - 63,500 5 - 53,000 6 - 46,000 7 - 41,000 8 - 35,000 9 - 30,500 War Dancer 1 - 118,500 2 - 70,000 3 - 55,000 4 - 50,000 5 - 42,000 6 - 35,000 Charlemagne 1 - 92,000 2 - 58,500 3 - 48,500 4 - 42,000 5 - 36,500 Dogs of War 1 - 70,000 2 - 47,000 3 - 37,500 4 - 30,500 5 - 25,000 Prudence & Caution 1 - 81,000 2 - 28,800 It becomes clear when looking at these numbers that Defiant was beginning to stabilize to a reader base of about 20,000 to 25,000 readers and not everyone was buying all the titles. The new title were showing only moderate initial sales with a quick drop-off. 20,000 - 30,000 print runs barely break even. They cost as much to make as the sales generate. Any sales less than that, especially for a company like Defiant that had an expensive and aggressive marketing campaign, it was clearly becoming evident that a negative cash flow was going to follow. The investment capital ran out, and the positive cash flow was on the verge of running out. Furthermore, if I project out for the next few months on what had been ordered, these are the "likely" sales totals (...had the issues actually been published)... Dark Dominion 13 - 25,500 Good Guys 12 - 22,000 Charlemagne 8 - 25,000 Dogs of War 6 - 20,200 Prudence & Caution 5 - 24,500 While it is evident that rough times were ahead, it is discouraging that Defiant was not patient with the 20,000 strong fan base. These people were the readers that would be likely to give positive praise, just as Valiant's small fan base gave their early titles positive publicity. Defiant 1 Added DEFIANT Genesis #1 (with card insert) to the list on 3/23/05Added Plasm #0 (Previews Edition) to the list on 4/17/05Thanks for posting these. Great stuff.
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Post by VaultKeeper on Jul 27, 2009 10:08:00 GMT -5
Your speculation about the audience size doesn't take into account for the cards. There was a lot of time, effort, and money sunk into the whole River Group partnership, that sapped quite a bit of momentum from the comic line, IMO. My point is that Defiant had more than just the comics to account for. It was an overambitious project at a time when new companies were starting to drop like flies. Had they come a year earlier, or even 6 months, it might have been a different story. If Schism had been a successful crossover, it could have bought Defiant enough time to develop their fan base, AND their characters.
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Post by Defiant1 on Jul 27, 2009 20:31:30 GMT -5
I'm not sure if you are replying to something specific or general in nature. The cards were definitely a distraction and a setback. They were behind a lot from what I've heard. Some uncredited artists filled in on some of those cards to help out the pros that were working on the comics. I think if Schism had come out as planned the woes would have stabilized and things would have gotten better.
Defiant1
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Post by CORVETTEJIM1968 on Dec 3, 2011 10:12:19 GMT -5
have you ever predicted or herd any print run info on Prudence & Caution Spanish editions? and the other variations of DEFIANT Genesis?
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Post by Defiant1 on Dec 3, 2011 20:02:16 GMT -5
have you ever predicted or herd any print run info on Prudence & Caution Spanish editions? and the other variations of DEFIANT Genesis? All my estimates are projected based upon known order data from Capital City, and average percentage ranges that Capital City was ordering in relation to Diamond. There was no breakdown of data available for the Spanish Prudence and Caution issues. I have two guesses as to why. 1) Orders were so low it didn't rank high enough to be measured . 2) Diamond may have combined the numbers with the regular editions. Either way, my guess is that the number produced was very small. I believe there to be less than 1,000 of the second issue and less than 2,000 of the first issue. That is a complete guess founded upon nothing solid. As far as DEFIANT Genesis goes, it was not a book that could be ordered through Capital City or Diamond, so no numbers exist on that either. The comic I list is not a guess. It was actually a published number from the convention literature. If the attendance for the Philadelphia convention was published somewhere, that might be a ball park estimate on the banner version without cards. I'm sketchy on the details, but I think I did read that they ran out at the show. My understanding is that the "no banner version" was sold through the (or a) home shopping network. My guess is that the number is low again, possibly in the same range as the DEFIANT posters. I've always assumed that 1,000 or less of those exist. I would not be shocked if someone told me that Prudence and Caution #2 had only 500 produced. I really do believe it is the rarest book DEFIANT comic published. When I came up with the estimate for Plasm #1, Pauline Weiss thought it was an abnormally high number. I started to doubt all my estimates. More recently on Jim's blog, he confirmed that it was pretty close to my estimate within 100,000 or so. Pauline was not working at DEFIANT when it started, but obviously her husband Alan was. I'd like to think the creators recollections are accurate, but from my experience, they are so involved with the day to day constructing the book,their memory of print runs and even a breakdown of which variants exist are often wrong or inaccurate. Defiant1
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Post by starseed on Sept 7, 2013 16:26:22 GMT -5
I'm wondering if there's a chance Warriors of Plasm 12 had a lower print run than issue 13, due to Schism being in 13. I've found issue 12 to be harder to find.
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Post by Defiant1 on Sept 7, 2013 20:45:58 GMT -5
It's definitely possible. Locally, I was not seeing that to be true.
My estimates are an extrapolation of available data.
12 - 40,500 13 - 36,000
My estimates show only a difference of 4500 copies. When they were ordered, there was around 6,000 comic book stores in existence. You are talking a difference of about 0.75 copies average per store. At the rate that collectors were leaving the hobby, it's possible that less copies of #13 sold leaving more of them left in the wild available for later purchase. In other words, more copies of #12 may be securely planted into the hands of collectors and off the market. Not all collectors immediately sell their comics upon leaving the hobby. They shove them in a closet and forget about them.
I've got a friend with a nice Hulk #181 that's been in his closet since about 1980. He hasn't bought new comics in over 30 years.
Edit: Now that I think about it, even I bought two copies of #12 when it came out and dropped down to only one copy of #13. I bought some extra #13's years later in case I want to sell some reading sets one day.
Defiant1
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Post by starseed on Sept 8, 2013 11:26:35 GMT -5
Just read through this thread completely for the first time. Very engrossing reading. Perhaps more so than any thread I've ever read on a message board.
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Post by starseed on Sept 28, 2013 15:10:01 GMT -5
Any idea how many copies of the Splatterball comics were printed?
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Post by Defiant1 on Sept 28, 2013 17:45:51 GMT -5
Any idea how many copies of the Splatterball comics were printed? I think the first Edition was limited to 10,000 copies (+standard overprinting). No idea on the 2nd Edition. There was no comic in the 3rd Edition. Only one known so far missing a foil stamp at all. Defiant1
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Post by starseed on Sept 28, 2013 18:09:22 GMT -5
Any idea how many copies of the Splatterball comics were printed? I think the first Edition was limited to 10,000 copies (+standard overprinting). No idea on the 2nd Edition. There was no comic in the 3rd Edition. Only one known so far missing a foil stamp at all. Defiant1 Thanks.
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