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Post by Todd Luck on Oct 10, 2004 16:16:57 GMT -5
Probably coincidence and reading way too much into it, but it's still fun to draw parrallels between Plasm and Shooter's career: Lorca- Jim Shooter Org of Plasm- Marvel Hortch- the weaker leadership Marvel had in the 70's before Shooter's "riegn" Ulnareah- the guys who "hacked" their job and took advantage of the "creative chaos" of 1970's Marvel Plasmoids- comic readers  Sue and the "generals" of Plasm- the owners of Marvel (who Shooter works with, and then has conflicts with that resulted in him leaving Marvel) Mule- Ron Perilman Sludge Slaves- disgruntled employees (the artists who go on to form Image?  ) Schism- the free-for-all comic "wars" between all the companies in the 90's in which Marvel, like Plasm, lost its "heart" Warriors of Plasm (Glory, Preach, etc)- maybe the fan press or critics like Neal Adams? (critics with noble intentions but supposedly unrealistic expectations that blame everything on the guy they see in charge) Mongrel Rude- fans who just hate anything that is popular and mainstream no matter what it is |
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Post by Defiant1 on Oct 10, 2004 17:41:44 GMT -5
You always have an interesting take on things.
Over the years, I've settled into your Mongrel Rude category. If I want something by someone who respects and cares for their characters, the self-published indy comics have a better track record. When their sales drop, they either slow down publishing or quit, they don't bastardize eveything you spent a year reading. Mainstream comics are virtually all guilty now of taking established characters and bastardizing what they were. Few if any explore and expand and build upon the past.
Defiant1
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Post by Todd Luck on Oct 10, 2004 21:51:19 GMT -5
You always have an interesting take on things. Over the years, I've settled into your Mongrel Rude category. If I want something by someone who respects and cares for their characters, the self-published indy comics have a better track record. When their sales drop, they either slow down publishing or quit, they don't bastardize eveything you spent a year reading. Mainstream comics are virtually all guilty now of taking established characters and bastardizing what they were. Few if any explore and expand and build upon the past. Defiant1 Most of the comics I read now do explore and build upon the past. And indi comics are great, unfortunately, all the ones I got interested in stopped publishing (usually in the middle of the story). Actually another (maybe better) parallel to Mongrel Rude may be the creators who bash Marvel (and those in charge of it) just to score cheap brownie points with the fans. Lord knows there's enough of them out there and most of them lined their pockets with money they made working at Marvel and would do so agian the second they need to make more money ;D. |
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Post by Defiant1 on Oct 10, 2004 23:32:18 GMT -5
Most of the comics I read now do explore and build upon the past. And indi comics are great, unfortunately, all the ones I got interested in stopped publishing (usually in the middle of the story). Actually another (maybe better) parallel to Mongrel Rude may be the creators who bash Marvel (and those in charge of it) just to score cheap brownie points with the fans. Lord knows there's enough of them out there and most of them lined their pockets with money they made working at Marvel and would do so agian the second they need to make more money ;D. Marvel and DC are like a broken pitcher. It doesn't matter how much talent and entertainment you pour into the individual comics, the ability for them to retain my interest for any length of time pours out through every older plot lead that was poorly handled. Hulk was one of my favorite characters when I was young. When I got back into comics, Peter David had completely crapped on everything I found entertaining about Hulk. If you talk to most fans, they'll praise his run of Hulk because the character was being mishandled at some point before he took it. There is no definitive point where you can go back and fix the screwed up characterization. As a reader, I'm forced to just accept the crappy abuse of the characters and the original concepts that defined everything I liked about them. The #1 disagreement I have with current Valiant fans is that they STARTED reading Valiant after Jim Shooter left. These people started reading the issues I detest and just accept it as the way everything was to be. Sure, they've gone back and reread the pre-unity issues, but their perception of Magnus was defined AFTER his world was destroyed. I'm damned to endure people who can't discern the difference between gold and fools gold. For some of my favorite comics even to be discussed in the same breath as the stories that poisoned them is something I find offensive. Any Valiant comics fans that have a problem with me, usually have it because I already had a problem with their point of view. So ultimately, my attitude is not changing. It's not bending, it's not flexing. I originally paid for ongoing stories that had a clear direction, a clear logic and thought pattern, and with that came logical expectations. People with no respect for what was going on, no vision of what was being told, just step in and try to sell me stories I would have never been interested in buying. For me, this is not a situation where comics I like took a short detour that can be remedied. For me, the detour has been permanent. Stories were begun, plots were started... yet unrelated and uninteresting stories were finished. The industry thinks small and it's not about telling an epic....it's about tricking readers into spending another $3 each month no matter what has to be done to achieve that. As far as the indy comics I like, most were begun by creators that never worked for Marvel, DC or Image. I'm sure your assessment is correct about creators forgetting who paid their bills and maybe even what established characters paid their rent. You are also correct that indy comics struggle to survive and often fail. A few exceptions exist. That adds to my lowered interest in buying modern comics. Defiant1 |
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Post by nighthawk on Oct 13, 2004 20:29:44 GMT -5
I couldn't have put it better. The parallels are funny, maybe a little ironically accurate. As far as the indy comics, I've started to buy more of them, and have consequently cut many of my Marvel titles for many of these reasons, but I can only think of one independent book I buy that is being published by creators who have worked for Marvel, DC, etc. The rest of them are being done by other individuals. Many indy companies who's books I've bought have gone under, so to speak. I am personally sick of Marvel (they are the best example I can think of) ignoring the history of all their characters, and spewing out this "Nu Marvel" crap, butchering the events and backgrounds of established characters, ignoring continuity (it really doesn't exist anymore), pissing off the fans, and continuing to tell the fans what we like, instead of asking what we like. I can't count the number of revamping they have done do dozens of characters in the past few years. I don't want to see a retooling of a character I've liked for years, I want to see new stories involving the characters I have liked and followed. I don't consider the revamp of Dr. Strange (for example) the same character as the one I've known forever. So, I don't buy them. There's a difference between marketing, and just insulting the fans. I haven't seen this with independent comics, which is what attracts me to them even more. As time goes on, I cut more mainstream book out of my purchases, and I put more indy comics in.
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Post by Defiant1 on Oct 13, 2004 22:00:36 GMT -5
I couldn't have put it better. The parallels are funny, maybe a little ironically accurate. As far as the indy comics, I've started to buy more of them, and have consequently cut many of my Marvel titles for many of these reasons, but I can only think of one independent book I buy that is being published by creators who have worked for Marvel, DC, etc. The rest of them are being done by other individuals. Many indy companies who's books I've bought have gone under, so to speak. I am personally sick of Marvel (they are the best example I can think of) ignoring the history of all their characters, and spewing out this "Nu Marvel" crap, butchering the events and backgrounds of established characters, ignoring continuity (it really doesn't exist anymore), pissing off the fans, and continuing to tell the fans what we like, instead of asking what we like. I can't count the number of revamping they have done do dozens of characters in the past few years. I don't want to see a retooling of a character I've liked for years, I want to see new stories involving the characters I have liked and followed. I don't consider the revamp of Dr. Strange (for example) the same character as the one I've known forever. So, I don't buy them. There's a difference between marketing, and just insulting the fans. I haven't seen this with independent comics, which is what attracts me to them even more. As time goes on, I cut more mainstream book out of my purchases, and I put more indy comics in. That is a exactly the complaint I have. I do have a problem that all the independant comics I like slow down to only once or twice a year so waiting for them can't even be justified. Do I make 24 unrewarding trips (1 visit/week) to the store each year to buy one comic I like? And when I get it, I've already forgotten was took place in the previous issue 6 months earlier. I've never had a problem with comic book stores not wanting me to hang out, but I'm a bit oversaturated on having the same conversations every week. Their news for me is about comic books I'm not reading, and my news for them is about comic books ten years old that they aren't selling. Defiant1 |
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