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Post by toddluck on Jun 23, 2006 19:38:01 GMT -5
What do we know about Rivergroup? It's been awhile, did we ever find anything out in our threads here?
Mainly I'm wondering what happened that they couldn't produce most of the stuff they solicited.
And who was the artist on Origin of Chasm? I remember Art Holcomb saying he was writer I don't remember if he said who the artist was. Did we confirm that it was never printed?
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Post by Defiant1 on Jun 23, 2006 20:18:07 GMT -5
What do we know about Rivergroup? It's been awhile, did we ever find anything out in our threads here? Mainly I'm wondering what happened that they couldn't produce most of the stuff they solicited. And who was the artist on Origin of Chasm? I remember Art Holcomb saying he was writer I don't remember if he said who the artist was. Did we confirm that it was never printed? I have nothing handy to substantiate what I say below, so take it all as heresay or "best of my recollection". Years ago on a "City of Heroes" messageboard I found a Defiant comics thread. I chatted with a guy who said he helped on doing artwork for a Defiant card set. According to him, Defiant just couldn't keep up with the artwork for the set he was working on. The artists assigned were having to pull in helpers to get it done. I think this guy was helping Mike Witherby ink, but I might be wrong. So if your impression was that the River Group couldn't keep up it contradicts my impression that Defiant couldn't keep up. I think we'd both agree that the River Group had too aggressive of a production schedule. So regardless of who points the finger at whom... the River Group is not blameless. Common sense would dictate that the investors who invested money wanted a quick payoff with high rate of return. Unless you get some jolly old billionaire playing with his excess of money, these venture capitalists are going to be sharks. They give you just enough cash to choke yourself and they shake their heads with a false look of sorrow and say "Sorry buddy, you just don't have it... give me our company back and you go find something you know how to do." They walk away grinning that they found a pawn to do all the grunt work. Some prospects fail, some take off. None do as well as a company could do if it was properly managed with a stable and reliable cash reserve set aside. Origin of Chasm was never printed. I know Joe James was slated to do some more work: Joe James will be creating an original DARK DOMINION poster, and penciling an upcoming DARK DOMINION Graphic Novel and a brand new version of Dark DARK DOMINION #0 (which will be published in comic book format only)!(Source: Dark Dominion #7, Dogs of War #1, Good Guys #6 -- editorial by Ed Polgardy) I assumed Joe James was going to draw the Origin of Chasm. Defiant1 |
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Post by toddluck on Jun 24, 2006 6:48:31 GMT -5
You're right about James the obvious choice since he was the regular artist on the book for the first half a year and continued working on DD projects afterwards (I wonder if that stuff was ever drawn?) Lapham (the regular artist on Plasm) did do the Splatterball send away comic and they did seem to try to get the regular artists to do the pencils on their special little issues (like Charlemagne 0).
Defiant couldn't keep up with the art? Sounds possible. Though it seems like they would've got Origin of Chasm done before the DD binder even got out. They couldn't get 8 pages (or however many it was) together in the year or so after that? Didn't the Splatterball comic ship in a timely manner? Maybe they got overwhelmed as they were getting into it?
I don't know if I ever posted this but my LCS was the inker on the Good Guys cards (I originally though he may have penciled them with my fuzzy memory). He was very late getting paid. I can't remember which company was on the check (Defiant or Rivergroup). Maybe they got overwhelmed on the projects all the way around?
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Post by Defiant1 on Jun 24, 2006 9:18:29 GMT -5
You're right about James the obvious choice since he was the regular artist on the book for the first half a year and continued working on DD projects afterwards (I wonder if that stuff was ever drawn?) Lapham (the regular artist on Plasm) did do the Splatterball send away comic and they did seem to try to get the regular artists to do the pencils on their special little issues (like Charlemagne 0). Defiant couldn't keep up with the art? Sounds possible. Though it seems like they would've got Origin of Chasm done before the DD binder even got out. They couldn't get 8 pages (or however many it was) together in the year or so after that? Didn't the Splatterball comic ship in a timely manner? Maybe they got overwhelmed as they were getting into it? I don't know if I ever posted this but my LCS was the inker on the Good Guys cards (I originally though he may have penciled them with my fuzzy memory). He was very late getting paid. I can't remember which company was on the check (Defiant or Rivergroup). Maybe they got overwhelmed on the projects all the way around? I quit speculating on the art for a lot of reasons. The biggest reason is the buzz and hype my site created and the reactions it inspired. Creators who knew this art had been almost worthless on the market started getting interested that someone was buying. Creators like Tim Hamilton appeared and were willing to sell me everything at a reasonable price. George Jeanty did the same. Janet Jackson was extremely helpful and had no problem selling when I offered a fair or better price for her work. Eventually "one-of-a-kind" pieces started being offered to other collectors before I had a chance to archive it for history. Pauline seemed a little more protective of Alan's work and her actions indicated she wasn't in a rush to part with artwork, especially not at a price I could afford to expand my site. J.G. Jones seemed interested to sell, but I never had luck getting through with the email address he gave me. A couple of years later I saw a thread online where J.G. expressed that he was ashamed of his early work. He implied he didn't want it viewed online. People were also emailing me a link to his first cover for Dark Dominion. I felt the price was disproportionately high. Joe James is friends with Janet. You'd think he'd be interested in the site since his name was so prominent. The same is true with David Lapham. There was just a whole spectrum of reactions to the site from the creators, and I got tired of sorting out motivations to see who was serious about helping promote the site and who was leveraging for an extra profit margin. Ultimately a lot of creators said to me "I'll do (fill in the blank) ." and they didn't do what they said they'd do. I'm one who cuts to the chase. Actions speak louder than words, and I would rather someone tell me "this ain't gonna happen" than tell me one thing and do another. Did anybody owe me anything? Of course not, unless it's the respect of doing what one says one will do. It just became very clear that anticipation of making money outweighed every attempt I was trying to make to archive the history and reveal to fans the story they had missed. When I was given the missing details, they were being sifted to me like crumbs and it caused me three and four times the amount of rework editing and creating the HTML. My time was becoming wasted needlessly. By the time I shut down the site, I was tired of sorting through moods and opinions and feelings. I was tired of dealing with people more interested in my wallet than my objectives. I was tired, of trying to figure out who wanted their hand up my butt to make me a puppet and who really cared about what I was trying to do historically. So honestly, I don't think about what Joe James did anymore and I don't think about Art Holcomb's scripts. I went on a journey to uncover what I could and let fans see what they were promised and robbed of seeing back in 1994. I came back with more than I expected in some areas, less than I expected in others. Ultimately, my quest ended. Defiant1 P.S. One big aspect about life is controlling your wants and putting dreams in their place. Read my letter in Charlemagne #4. I kinda posed a question there back in 1994, and it applies here now. |
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Post by toddluck on Jun 25, 2006 9:01:29 GMT -5
Wow, I never knew you had a letter published in a Defiant Comics. You raised an interesting plot point about Charles' brother. Skimming the issues I couldn't find any referance to his burial.
Speaking of Rivergroup, I got in a recent discussion on wether it was a good idea to put Plasm 0 in Previews. I vote "yes." It did save me from buying Plasm 0 but it did sell me on Dark Dominion (all $30+ dollars of it!). I know it got my best friend interested in Defiant (and the DD card set). It got a lot people in on the ground floor.
That was one of the things that kept me out of a lot of universes. If I couldn't get what story or stories they started with I wasn't going to bother. The $30+ price tag on the first Defiant "comic" was a bit steep for most fans. I think it was a nice "Welcome" mat for the fans. Plus maybe it eased any guilt they had for charging over $30 for one friggin "comic" (and a vital one at that)
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Post by Defiant1 on Jun 25, 2006 11:11:11 GMT -5
Wow, I never knew you had a letter published in a Defiant Comics. You raised an interesting plot point about Charles' brother. Skimming the issues I couldn't find any referance to his burial. Yeah. It sets me apart and doesn't make me look like a huckster just trying to hawk his dead comics to people. I actually read the stuff and was a fan. Speaking of Rivergroup, I got in a recent discussion on wether it was a good idea to put Plasm 0 in Previews. I vote "yes." It did save me from buying Plasm 0 but it did sell me on Dark Dominion (all $30+ dollars of it!). I know it got my best friend interested in Defiant (and the DD card set). It got a lot people in on the ground floor. That was one of the things that kept me out of a lot of universes. If I couldn't get what story or stories they started with I wasn't going to bother. The $30+ price tag on the first Defiant "comic" was a bit steep for most fans. I think it was a nice "Welcome" mat for the fans. Plus maybe it eased any guilt they had for charging over $30 for one friggin "comic" (and a vital one at that) Was it a good idea? Hmmm! That was (by all circumstantial evidence) the biggest selling issue of Previews ever. There is no better exposure. The Plasm #0 bothered me because I want my comics to fit in a bag. Was it a bad decision... no. I think it was a bad decision to keep publishing bits and pieces in a non-standard way. Fans are very obsessive compulsive. They want their boundaries set. An occasional poly bagged issue can be forgiven. A sneak preview can be forgiven. Unfortunately Defiant was doing it every month. It's too frustrating to keep up with. The only analogy about comics industry I can make is that of the ocean. Writers like to look at numbers and say "100,000 sold! We've got a solid readership." My first answer back is... "you may not have ANY readers". The writer will reply, "Well, sure there are some speculators and hoarders, but I only care about the readers." My answer to that is... "Quit worry why somebody bought the comics and just put out the best product you can." Here's the reason. Comics, like the ocean needs bottom feeders. If you went into the wild and killed all the bottom feeders, you'd start killing the eco-system and what makes it work. The same is true if you try to only cater to readers and ignore the hoarders and speculators that maintain the order numbers. The smartest marketing event I've ever seen was the coupon program. It may not have seemed like it because it was expensive and labor intensive, but it was effevtive. 1) Everyone had a fair chance to get the limited product 2) It devalued the comics with the clipped coupons and motivated readers to buy 2 or more of each issue. 3) It forced collectors to talk and look for back issues. 4) The limited comics fit within the parameters of a long box. No special packaging was needed. (With Glory installments you need a magazine box). In essence it created talk at the consumer level. Sure you need quality product and that should alway be a goal... but positive word-of-mouth is THE most effective advertising. Americans are jaded by ads and hype. The ads and abundant press Defiant got did not buy sales. It bought awareness. Sure you need awareness, but you need your audience to care first. If 100 people become aware of Defiant through an ad, but they hate the fact Jim criticized Layton, you've bought 100 critics. Your publicity bought the wrong type of awareness. It's not just enough to get awareness. You have to get positive word-of-mouth Taddeo has been an expert at this, the only problem is that he has no substance to his product. It's mindless. His product is a Trojan Horse. He boggles us with publicity and then has crap hidden inside. the pages, The problems in promoting comics today is... 1) don't overhype your quality. Let the public decide. 2) Don't throw money and resources away at billboard/bannner type ads., instead provide facts and information that coaxes people to investigate on their own. Save the money for building and investing in a quality product. 3) Listen to the audience and realize that not every praise is genuine and not every criticism is an obstacle. If a dog craps in your yard, don't try to stomp out the smell. You just get the smell all over yourself. Better to avoid it and let it turn to fertilizer. Your yard (audience) will appreciate it better. When Jim & Defiant started defending themselves, a lot of their advocates shut up. We were watching a verbal boxing match at that point. How much more effective would it have been to let their advocates do their fighting for Jim? Part of being a leader is knowing when to stay out of the trenches. Part of being a lawyer is knowing when to put people on the stand and when not to do it. It's a chess game. Defiant1 |
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Post by toddluck on Jun 26, 2006 19:55:18 GMT -5
Yeah the overproduction of card sets was a HUGE mistake. The product was high quality and they're the only card sets I've ever really bought but there was no way in hell I could afford many of them. Actually I could only afford one (DD and it's binder) and that's it and when they came out and I was the biggest Shooter fan on the block. I picked up some later on EXTREME discount. I can't imagine anyone ordering all those card sets when they were first solicited.
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Quato
Level 14
a.k.a. Defiant1
Quato a.k.a. Defiant1
Posts: 1,669 
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Post by Quato on Jun 26, 2006 20:05:08 GMT -5
Yeah the overproduction of card sets was a HUGE mistake. The product was high quality and they're the only card sets I've ever really bought but there was no way in hell I could afford many of them. Actually I could only afford one (DD and it's binder) and that's it when they came out and I was the biggest Shooter fan on the block. I picked up some later on EXTREME discount. I can't imagine anyone ordering all those card sets when they were first solicited. The problem went further that that. There is no boundary to define what a complete Plasm binder is. I wanted my binder to be the best... the premium version of everything. I put the foil character cards in mine. If you start putting the Level 2 cards in and then all the oddball stuff, the binder gets full and you don't know if there was ever an intended configuration. People are always advertising a complete binder and then say it only has two level two cards. I think you had to buy a full case to get one Level 2 card. It was just stupid. It was a carrot on a stick deal to get you spending money. Anybody would have been a fool to play along. I completely ignored the chase cards for Dark Dominion. Once I got the story, I qwuit looking for anything else. The Level 2 Dark Dominion cards still advertise for $30-$40 in places. Hell, it cost a retailer that much to find one. They aren't making any money at that price. It's just a rip off. Q |
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Post by toddluck on Jun 27, 2006 20:23:34 GMT -5
BTW, is that card check list you used to have a link to still up?
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Quato
Level 14
a.k.a. Defiant1
Quato a.k.a. Defiant1
Posts: 1,669
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Post by Quato on Jun 27, 2006 21:49:31 GMT -5
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Post by toddluck on Jun 28, 2006 6:38:23 GMT -5
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