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Post by Defiant1 on Jan 23, 2005 15:03:47 GMT -5
I didn't know that as I don't yet have enough of the Defiant books to sit and read. I have read Plasm #0 and Warriors of Plasm #1 and really enjoyed them. I've also read the first few issues of the Good Guys, but I really haven't been overly impressed with that one. I figure once I get a chance to get caught up, I'll have a bit more to contribute in the Defiant area as I really don't know a whole lot about it in terms of story content. All of the titles started with a good concept. They wavered in quality on the $3.25 issues and they slowly were getting back on track and were really becoming something worthwhile. Good Guys jumped around the most. The writers changed too much so it never developed it's own flavor. It kept reintroducing the concept and interjecting ideas they weren't using. This is fine for a long term strategy, but the short term stories were suffering. I'd have to agree with Greg Boone's comments in an interview. Issue #5 was a solid issue. i'm a bit sarcastic in some of my reviews about Good Guys. In one issue the dad invites a kid into his house and then immediately leaves the house and starts flying around the neighborhood in search of his daughter. The logic flow in the story was sorely lacking. In another issue, Flex just walks into White Crane's house and starts lifting the sofa above her head with the parents still sitting on the sofa. Yeah, that's a bright move. Tjhat's how I'd introduce myself if I was super-strong. "Hey Look.... I can lift you above my head".... Sheesh. Some other DEFIANT titles also had needless grandstanding. Charlemagne bends up fireplace tools in one issue of either Charlemagne or War Dancer. For me, the payoff for Good Guys was going to be the culmination of the Dogs of War series. Some old threads on this board discuss that. Dogs of War ended at #5. #8 would have been the best in the series....plotted by Jim of course. Defiant1 |
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Post by Todd Luck on Jan 25, 2005 12:11:26 GMT -5
Well i got to diagree with Defiant1 on this. Good guys worked for me. The subplots and character develop was the best part of the book for me (though they did have some really impressive fight scenes like the Truc/Flex battle, and their battles with "supervillain" groups).
I especially appreciated a comic that treated kids like normal kids since I was in High School. Most teen characters from other companies might as well have been from other planets, they were so alien to what teens were really like. Even Shooter's Harbinger, which did a great job of writing the characters as real as a mutant could be, put them in a situation most of us will never experience (a group of teens on the run). It was a breath fresh air for these kids to actually go to high school, the mall, ect and go through things that kids actually go through.
But it was a very serialized title that's best taken as a whole. It didn't really work for me until issue 2 and didn't start to get really good til later. Still, as much as I liked the book, I never did like The Master and found his repeated appearances a bit redundant.
But different strokes for different folks I always say.
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Post by Defiant1 on Jan 25, 2005 19:59:40 GMT -5
Well i got to diagree with Defiant1 on this. Good guys worked for me. The subplots and character develop was the best part of the book for me (though they did have some really impressive fight scenes like the Truc/Flex battle, and their battles with "supervillain" groups). I especially appreciated a comic that treated kids like normal kids since I was in High School. Most teen characters from other companies might as well have been from other planets, they were so alien to what teens were really like. Even Shooter's Harbinger, which did a great job of writing the characters as real as a mutant could be, put them in a situation most of us will never experience (a group of teens on the run). It was a breath fresh air for these kids to actually go to high school, the mall, ect and go through things that kids actually go through. But it was a very serialized title that's best taken as a whole. It didn't really work for me until issue 2 and didn't start to get really good til later. Still, as much as I liked the book, I never did like The Master and found his repeated appearances a bit redundant. But different strokes for different folks I always say. We agree on "the master", but strangely I thought issue #1 was great. #2 is the issue that lost me.... but we've discussed the Plasm crossover before. #1 & #5 were hits for me. #2, #3, #6, #7, #8 were just okay. There wasn't enough new character development for me. They rehashed some of the old relationships already formed or hinted at in issue #1 #4 leans as a miss, but I describe it in my summary as schizo. Some elements are great... but the chasm/nobody bond sets up some cool interaction. I'd say #9 was a hit, but it kind of dumped new bad guys onto us again and showed us stuff the previous issues had display. Yeah, we all have different opinions. I like Grey and Greg's artwork. It was different. it made me pay attention. The problem for me was tone and flow in the whole series. I don't like seeing any series play musical chairs with the writing chores. I'd rather see a mediocre writer stick with a book than see a bunch of great writers change everything or re-establish relationships each issue. i have no doubt that all of my issues were being addressed and I planned to stick with all of DEFIANT's titles. If you really look at my pre-disposition against a childrens series in general, it is a testament to the plotting and foundation that I would even give it a chance. And Nighthawk is a tremendous fan of the series. Good Guys just wasn't my favorite flavor. Dog of War was. Plans to merge/cross the plot lines was genius in my mind. I sometimes wonder if the kids ever google search their names and find my site. Defiant1 |
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Post by Todd Luck on Jan 25, 2005 20:21:23 GMT -5
And Nighthawk is a tremendous fan of the series. Good Guys just wasn't my favorite flavor. Dog of War was. Plans to merge/cross the plot lines was genius in my mind. I sometimes wonder if the kids ever google search their names and find my site. Defiant1 Dogs of War was their most consistant title in writing & art and probably still my favorite title overall (by an inch, most were very good). They were only going to cross the two series for one issue, using one character. Ofcourse it was a very important issue (the last DOW) and a very important character (who would be instrumental in bringing about Shooter's "end")  . It would've rocked. |
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Post by nighthawk on Jan 25, 2005 20:34:44 GMT -5
I would have loved this because I liked Dogs Of War, too. I think it would have been a very "heavy", emotional story, but it would have been a great one.
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Post by Todd Luck on Jan 28, 2005 15:58:52 GMT -5
We agree on "the master", but strangely I thought issue #1 was great. #2 is the issue that lost me.... but we've discussed the Plasm crossover before. #1 & #5 were hits for me. #2, #3, #6, #7, #8 were just okay. There wasn't enough new character development for me. They rehashed some of the old relationships already formed or hinted at in issue #1 #4 leans as a miss, but I describe it in my summary as schizo. Some elements are great... but the chasm/nobody bond sets up some cool interaction. I'd say #9 was a hit, but it kind of dumped new bad guys onto us again and showed us stuff the previous issues had display. i have no doubt that all of my issues were being addressed and I planned to stick with all of DEFIANT's titles. Defiant1 Are you sure issue 2 lost you? It crossed over (briefly)with the storyline going on THAT MONTH in Plasm. The storyline that we discussed earlier that "lost you" was the Foxhunt story with Nudge that appeared in Good Guys 4. The characters seemed to be changing and progressing every issue or two when I read it. Recon and Scrag, in particular, were completely different characters by the series end (well, Scrag would've been if we'ld given him two more issues ) Every time they faced voilence it changed them a little. That was one of the things that, in my opinion, that seperated the good Defiant stories from the okay ones (which was why Dogs of War was so good). Btw, I think the Master would've evolved into a cool villian. The conversation he had with Charles was intrigueing (Good Guys 7). The small role he plays in Schism and the Charlemagne appearance they forshadowed in that conversation sounded very interesting. |
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Post by Defiant1 on Jan 28, 2005 17:43:35 GMT -5
Are you sure issue 2 lost you? It crossed over (briefly)with the storyline going on THAT MONTH in Plasm. The storyline that we discussed earlier that "lost you" was the Foxhunt story with Nudge that appeared in Good Guys 4. The characters seemed to be changing and progressing every issue or two when I read it. Recon and Scrag, in particular, were completely different characters by the series end (well, Scrag would've been if we'ld given him two more issues ) Every time they faced voilence it changed them a little. That was one of the things that, in my opinion, that seperated the good Defiant stories from the okay ones (which was why Dogs of War was so good). Btw, I think the Master would've evolved into a cool villian. The conversation he had with Charles was intrigueing (Good Guys 7). The small role he plays in Schism and the Charlemagne appearance they forshadowed in that conversation sounded very interesting. #2 had some great elements, but I felt it came up short. The crossover was too soon because too many new characters were involved. Most of that has to do with my expectations which the story flow of the Universe had already begun shaping. By this time I'd read Plasm & Dark Dominion. Seeing new substratum characters or creatures from the org was too commonplace. It was like reading a list of names on the land deeds at a county courthouse. I'll give the creators credit. They invested a lot of time in creating these characters for the card sets. That is a tremendous investment of resources. Unfortunately, they were so determined to give us a glimpse of these characters that the characters all seemed too similar after awhile. When Good Guys #2 came out, I knew little or nothing about Glory. I knew little about the kids or how their personality was going to affect anything. It reminded me of the Space Mountain roller coaster at Disney World in the 70's(?) which didn't excite me. It threw you through twists and turns, but it left you in the dark. Riding a roller coaster in the dark took away a lot of the excitement for me. Going through a bombardment of story elements in the comic just to end on a rather cliche "Goog Guys win" ending seemed anti-climactic. I was hoping to see more. It was like putting a drop of green food coloring in water, it was doing everything I would expect it to do (if you wanted those elements). The flow was predictable once the elements were introduced. It wasn't horrible, but it was like looking through the glass on the oven door and seeing cake batter in a pan. I knew something was building, but I was really more interested in the final payoff rather than the process leading me to it. I liked #5 because it was paced more evenly and you got to indulge into who the characters are. One thing that watered down the realism for me in the series was the reoccuring fascination with comic book superheroes. I don't think any kids would have that much problem separating real life from comic books. This is especially true for the father. I read comic books as a kid and my first reaction to gaining superpowers would be "what can I do", not "hey lets save the world". I felt the desire they had to be comic book superheroes was overdone. The master was interesting. He entertained me, but he felt forced. The Charlemagne crossover felt forced. (The complete opposite was true on the Charlemagne/War Dancer crossovers.) Defiant1 |
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Post by charles yoakum on Feb 17, 2005 13:30:42 GMT -5
There was a lot of material that I think got missed by having as many writers as we did on the books. Good guys especially suffers from this. I was glad to get the WarDancer inking assignment and get off of Good Guys since I got to work with Alan Weiss.
The WarDancer/Char crossovers were well plotted by Jim and Alan and had a consistancy taht was missing on some of the other books, no question. And Alan's art kicked ass. If only people could have seen the last issue of WarDancer.
Good Guys #2 doesn't suffers as much as 3 and up, where things were really all over the place, both art and story.
If only you guys had read my proposed script for Dark Dominion, it would have been fun.
Charles Yoakum
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Post by Defiant1 on Feb 17, 2005 14:22:49 GMT -5
There was a lot of material that I think got missed by having as many writers as we did on the books. Good guys especially suffers from this. I was glad to get the WarDancer inking assignment and get off of Good Guys since I got to work with Alan Weiss. The WarDancer/Char crossovers were well plotted by Jim and Alan and had a consistancy taht was missing on some of the other books, no question. And Alan's art kicked ass. If only people could have seen the last issue of WarDancer. Good Guys #2 doesn't suffers as much as 3 and up, where things were really all over the place, both art and story. If only you guys had read my proposed script for Dark Dominion, it would have been fun. Charles Yoakum Welcome to the board! Your comments echo my thoughts. The War Dancer/Charlemagne crossovers were some of my favorite scenes. I loved seeing the exact same scene from two different perspectives. It gave the comics a different dimension and made me (the reader) feel as though I was actually there in the room or setting. It was cool seeing an event in one comic, then picking up another comic and reading the extra conversations which took place right after the event. Alan Weiss is indeed an incredible artist. Defiant1 |
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Post by knightt on Feb 17, 2005 22:53:58 GMT -5
If only you guys had read my proposed script for Dark Dominion, it would have been fun. Charles Yoakum Mr. Yoakum, indeed welcome to the boards !!! You mentioned a proposed script... any chance of us getting to read this script ? As you can tell, there is a lot of appreciation in the work at Defiant and it would be a real treat for many of us to be able to read something fresh. Again, welcome... |
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Post by charles yoakum on Feb 18, 2005 13:59:09 GMT -5
Alan Weiss is indeed an incredible artist. Defiant1 It is true. I have the original for the final page of WarDancer 3 framed over my computer. Alan was nice enough to let me have it when we divvied up pages. He didn't have to do that, but it was generous of him! Its one of my favorite pages I've ever inked, and I wish more people could see just how nice the War Dancer pages were. Alan asked me to do a dry brush effect, giving grey tones to the art, and it unfortunately muddied up in the printing process, but it makes the originals really outstanding looking when you see them un-muddied and full size with no color! I also wish that Alan and I had gotten back the final issue of WarDancer that was off to the colorists when the company went under. I don't think that anyone has ever accounted for a full issues artwork that we did that disappeared into thin air. Perhaps someone that knows someone over at Digital Chamelion can as them about it someday. I know that neither Alan nor I ever received the artwork back. Charles |
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Post by VaultKeeper on Feb 18, 2005 19:57:42 GMT -5
Hi Charles-
Glad to see you made it over here. I'm happy I gave the address to you. If you get the chance, take a minute to register, so you don't show up as just a guest. I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say we all look forwrd to hearing more stories about Valiant, Defiant, & Broadway. WELCOME!---Steve
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Post by charlesyo on Feb 24, 2005 18:38:30 GMT -5
duly noted. Happy to be here!
Charles
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Post by knightt on Feb 24, 2005 18:41:29 GMT -5
Right on, Charles !!!
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Post by Defiant1 on Sept 17, 2009 19:39:29 GMT -5
This thread discussed some story content. Still not thee Nudge crossover though...
Defiant1
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. It would've rocked.
